Dive into the challenging realities of inclusive leadership in this powerful episode of the Leading Below the Surface podcast! Host LaTonya Wilkins welcomes psychologist and author Nadia Nagamootoo to discuss her groundbreaking book “Beyond Discomfort: Why Inclusive Leadership is so Hard.

Episode Summary

In this thought-provoking conversation, LaTonya and Nadia explore why inclusion goes far beyond traditional DEI frameworks and why abandoning inclusivity poses significant risks to organizations and society. They discuss how inclusive leadership impacts innovation, mental health, and our ability to address global challenges, revealing the psychological barriers that make inclusion difficult but even more necessary in today’s world.

Key Insights:

    • Inclusive leadership extends beyond corporate DEI initiatives to impact innovation, mental health, and our approach to global challenges
    • Power dynamics create resistance to inclusive practices, making change difficult but essential.
    • The psychological discomfort of inclusive leadership is something to embrace rather than avoid.
    • Receptiveness to learning about ourselves and others is fundamental to inclusive leadership.
    • Short-term thinking prevents us from seeing the long-term benefits of inclusive practices

If you’re concerned about recent backlash against inclusion initiatives or looking for deeper perspectives on creating truly inclusive environments, this episode offers valuable insights that go below the surface of conventional DEI discussions.

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More About Nadia

NADIA NAGAMOOTOO (she/her) is the founder and CEO of Avenir.  She’s a Chartered Psychologist, a MBA and accredited coach with 20 years’ experience in the field of leadership development, culture change and Diversity, Equity & Inclusion.  She’s worked globally to provoke powerful conversations at all organizational levels and develop sustainable inclusive leadership practices.

She is host of the popular podcast show, Why Care?, where she delves deeply into the complex and uncomfortable world of DEI.  Her bestselling book, Beyond Discomfort: Why inclusive leadership is so hard (and what you can do about it) was published in March 2024 and has been shortlisted for the Business Book of the Year Awards 2025.

www.avenirconsultingservices.com – for information about what Nadia’s company does

www.nadianagamootoo.com – for information on the podcast show, book and speaking

www.beyond-discomfort.com – for free resources and tools related to the book

Resources from today’s episode:

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For More on the Book ⁠Leading Below the Surface 

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Podcast Transcript: 

LaTonya Wilkins:
 Hey folks, LaTonya here. I’m so excited to announce that registration for Coaching Below the Surface is now open! You can find more information at ChangeCoaches.io. This program goes way beyond DEI. It’s all about coaching in uncertain environments, creating mutual safety, and building resilience. It’s ICF-approved and SHRM-approved. You’ll meet with a cohort of like-minded leaders who will challenge you to grow in new ways. Visit our landing page to join the waitlist and get a 10% discount if you register by May 15th. We hope to see you there!

LaTonya Wilkins:
 Hello everyone, and welcome to the Leading Below the Surface podcast! I’m LaTonya Wilkins, your host, executive coach, award-winning author, and I am so excited to be joined by another author today. I love all my guests, but I especially have a soft spot for fellow authors. She wrote this book—if you’re watching on YouTube, you can see it—Beyond Discomfort: Why Inclusive Leadership is So Hard. It’s such an important topic right now, and I’m so glad to have Nadia Nagamootoo with me. Nadia, thank you so much for being here.

Nadia Nagamootoo:
 Thank you, LaTonya. It’s really wonderful to be here. I’m excited to share some of the concepts from my book. As you mentioned, Beyond Discomfort explores why inclusive leadership is so challenging. As a psychologist—I’m a chartered occupational psychologist, which has different names depending on where you are in the world—I’ve worked for over 20 years with organizations and leaders globally. Through this work, I’ve noticed that many leaders are stuck when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). Not all, but many are stuck for different reasons, and understanding that stuckness is the hard part. It’s about why certain conversations around inclusion jar with people in different ways. What’s fascinating to me is how personal and emotional this work is. It’s connected to our core beliefs and how we see the world.

Nadia Nagamootoo:
 That’s what makes inclusive leadership so hard. It’s about reconciling our own beliefs with other realities, and for many, that feels uncomfortable. It’s hard to accept that there are multiple realities out there, and that’s where the discomfort comes from. The whole book is about exploring how our personal values and beliefs can create friction when it comes to inclusion.

LaTonya Wilkins:
 I’m getting excited just listening to you, Nadia! You hit on something that’s so important: the emotional aspect of this work. Right now, especially in the U.S., there’s been a lot of attacks on DEI initiatives, but I firmly believe inclusion is about so much more than DEI. There’s a wellness piece, an innovation piece, and even a mental health aspect. What are your thoughts on this? Do you think I’m wrong in pushing for inclusion to go beyond DEI?

Nadia Nagamootoo:
 I think you’re spot on, LaTonya. Inclusion is so much more than DEI. It impacts how we see the world, how we behave, how we relate to others, and ultimately, it affects outcomes across many areas—innovation, sustainability, mental health, education, and even caregiving. It really touches all parts of life. If we lean into the discomfort of being inclusive, not just at work but also in our personal lives and interactions with strangers, we could create a better world. We could solve significant global problems if we truly collaborate and embrace our differences.

LaTonya Wilkins:
 I completely agree. We have the power to solve big issues if we get beyond the corporate DEI box. But right now, inclusion feels so often constrained by that. So how do you think inclusion can address some of the broader challenges we’re facing, like instability around the world, climate change, or societal inequality? It feels like inclusion has a huge role to play here.

Nadia Nagamootoo:
 You’re absolutely right. Inclusion is deeply connected to those broader challenges. The desire for power is often what holds us back from solving big problems. From a psychological standpoint, I’ve seen this desire for power at the core of many societal issues. For example, the cure for cancer could already be out there, but we’re holding onto power instead of sharing what we have to solve problems. The reluctance to share wealth or opportunities—whether that’s through education, access, or resources—is a major barrier. But if we really lean into inclusion, if we bring together our differences, we could change the world for the better. We need to acknowledge that there’s more than enough for everyone.

LaTonya Wilkins:
 This resonates deeply. As thought leaders, it’s up to us to rise to the occasion and start tackling these issues. But, as you mentioned, power dynamics play a huge role here. How do you think inclusion fits into power? In the context of leadership, is there a relationship between power and inclusion?

Nadia Nagamootoo:
 Yes, absolutely. Power and inclusion are interconnected. Power isn’t inherently bad, but it becomes problematic when it’s unearned. Many people in positions of power benefit from advantages that were not based on their abilities but on factors like gender, race, or socioeconomic background. The discomfort comes when people have to acknowledge that they’ve benefited from systemic inequities. Power can be invisible, but it shapes so much of our world. And when we’re willing to recognize that and be inclusive, it allows us to address these systemic issues.

LaTonya Wilkins:
 That’s such an important point. It’s all about recognizing that you don’t have to give up your power to allow others to rise. So, in today’s world, we need people who already have power to be the ones who say, “This isn’t right.” But, as you said, people are reluctant to let go of that power. That’s why we need to shift the mindset, and leaders need to be open to self-reflection and learn about the realities others face.

Nadia Nagamootoo:
 Exactly. And that’s what we see in history—those in power don’t always want to let go, even if it’s the right thing to do. But if we can foster an environment where leaders can open their minds to the fact that their success might not be purely due to their talent but because of the system they’ve benefited from, that’s where inclusion starts. It’s about helping them understand that real leadership involves using that power to uplift others.

LaTonya Wilkins:
 It’s so crucial for leaders to do that inner work. And speaking of that, in your book, you mention a fascinating 2×2 model that explores receptiveness to learning and willingness to act. Can you explain that a bit?

Nadia Nagamootoo:
 Yes! The model shows the relationship between receptiveness to learning and willingness to act. At one extreme, you have high receptiveness and high willingness to act—those who are open to learning and ready to make changes. At the other extreme, you have low receptiveness and low willingness to act—those who are closed off and resistant. Leaders who are open to learning about themselves and others are the ones who can lead inclusively. They understand that discomfort is part of the process, but they push through it for growth.

LaTonya Wilkins:
 I love that. It’s all about staying curious and open to learning, especially about the realities of others. We need more leaders who are willing to challenge their own beliefs and act on that new understanding. So, Nadia, where can people find you and connect with you?

Nadia Nagamootoo:
 You can find me on LinkedIn, where I’m pretty active. I’m also on Instagram, and my website is NadiaNagamootoo.com. For anyone interested in working with my team globally, you can visit AvenirConsultingServices.com. My book is available on Amazon, and you can find additional resources on BeyondDiscomfort.com, including a free survey tool and workbook.

LaTonya Wilkins:
 Thank you so much, Nadia. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation, and I think there’s so much more we could explore. Perhaps we’ll have a part two someday. And thank you to everyone for joining us on today’s podcast. We’ll see you next time on Leading Below the Surface.