Join LaTonya Wilkins in this engaging episode of the Leading Below the Surface podcast as she welcomes improv expert Bob Kulhan. With a rich background in comedy and professional development, Bob shares his insights on the transformative power of improvisation in the workplace. Discover how the principles of improv, such as “Yes, and,” can foster psychological safety, enhance team collaboration, and encourage innovative thinking. Whether you’re a leader or a team member, you’ll gain practical tools and exercises to create a more connected and dynamic work environment. Tune in to learn how to embrace change through the art of improv and enhance your workplace interactions.
Resources from today’s episode:
– Change Coaches Guide to Create Psychological Safe Conversations Across Differences
– Change Coaches Newsletter
Transcript:
A – LaTonya Wilkins
B– Bob Kulhan
00:00:00 – A Are you wanting to close the year out strong? Our Change Coaches offerings include everything from retreat facilitation to leadership accelerators. Check out Changecoaches IE for more information or email us at infoangecoachesIO to find out how we can support you and your organization in 2024 and beyond. Welcome to the Leading Below the Surface podcast, where we explore how to navigate and thrive in today’s changing workplace. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Leading Below the Surface podcast. I’m Latanya Wkins, your host, and today I have a guest.
00:00:50 – A This is a true Chicagoan. We met at an ICF Midwest conference where I attended one of his sessions. It was amazing, and I loved it so much that I invited him to come today. He talked about one of my favorite topics: improv. I have a strong interest in the arts, especially in Chicago, where I enjoy going to Second City. So, I invited Bob Colohan to discuss improv and how we can use it in the workplace.
00:01:41 – A Bob, do you have anything to add to the intro?
00:01:44 – B Latanya, you did a good job. Chicago, and specifically the Cubs, will always be a part of me. I moved to the East Coast, to Brooklyn, and now I’m in New Jersey, but I will always be a Chicagoan.
00:02:02 – A I sometimes wonder about that. But you made the move.
00:02:08 – B I did it. I performed on big stages, including the main stage of Second City as an understudy. When they didn’t offer me the stage, many people moved to New York or LA, but I chose to move to the city.
00:02:24 – A You have a strong background, and I saw more evidence of that before we started recording. What made you move to New York?
00:02:35 – B I’m an improviser and sketch comedian, and Chicago is the place to learn it. I’m originally from downstate Illinois, from a town called Effingham, which is quite small.
00:02:53 – B I started in Chicago, studied improv, and moved to LA when my friends did. I worked with UCLA for about 10 years and Columbia Business School for a similar duration. I know New York fairly well and consider myself a city guy. LA is a massive sprawl, while New York is more concentrated in Manhattan and Brooklyn, which I love.
00:03:46 – A It’s a fun place. Have you done any stage work there?
00:03:54 – B Yes, I performed last night.
00:03:57 – A Tell us more about that.
00:04:01 – B Once you have kids, time becomes a diminishing resource. I moved to Montclair, New Jersey, and realized I couldn’t keep commuting to the city and getting home at 1 AM. By coincidence, a founding member of the Annoyance Theater, Gary Roran, moved to Montclair around the same time. Abby Schur, who performed at ETC, also lives nearby. We created Montclair Improv, and many talented improvisers joined us. We perform a couple of times a month, and last night we performed at the Montclair Film Festival.
00:05:09 – A That sounds like a lot of fun. You also do consulting, right?
00:05:19 – B About 25 years ago, I started applying the tenets of improvisation used in comedy to personal and professional development through the behavioral sciences. This led me to become an adjunct at Duke University Fuqua School of Business and Columbia Business School. I teach people how to use these techniques for communication, collaboration, creativity, innovation, adaptability, conflict resolution, and ultimately to create psychological safety.
00:05:57 – A That’s awesome. What have been some of your favorite student stories? I teach at Kellogg as well. What’s been your number one story about teaching students something beneficial?
00:06:16 – B I don’t know if I have a single story. Many things come to mind, especially about the challenging students. You start to crack them a little, and they begin to think differently. They start questioning their attitudes and language with peers, realizing it may not produce the outcomes they want. You see their growth and discovery, which increases the likelihood they will apply these lessons in real life, at home, with partners, children, and in daily conversations within their organizations. This creates the sustainable impact of what we do.
00:07:31 – B I have been fortunate to witness this growth hundreds of times over the last 25 years. That growth is what you teach.
00:07:43 – A Right? It’s about day-to-day life that business schools often overlook. Your students appreciate this. When I attended business school, I didn’t have access to an improv class or personal leadership insights like I teach at Kellogg. So, let’s get into it.
00:08:03 – A How would you define improv? When I took my first improv class, I did activities in corporations for retreats and offsites. However, my first improv class was completely different. I would love to hear how you would describe it.
00:08:21 – B I’m going to counter this. Since I’m a 30-year veteran of improv, how do you describe it?
00:08:28 – A I love that. Now we’re getting into a coach mindset. The way I would describe it is that it wasn’t what I expected. I thought it would be like some corporate trainings that felt cheesy. These are people I really want to train with. It didn’t feel safe and felt fake. But when I did it at Second City, I would say it’s a way of opening yourself up by removing judgment from your mind. There’s no judgment, and it’s very sensing. So number one, remove judgment; number two, focus on sensing; and number three, follow your heart and intuition. It’s interesting because you connect with people you might not like at face value, but you still connect with them. It’s hard to explain. What do you think of that definition?
00:09:39 – B I love the way you worked through that. It’s great to see.
00:09:42 – A It was kind of messy, but there you go.
00:09:45 – B Improv is messy art. Art is messy. If art isn’t messy, you’re painting by numbers, which is not art. Creativity is messy, and you need to have messy conversations to think through things and create space for that.
00:10:00 – B Regarding the comedic side, improv comedy and sketch comedy, when you host an event, I remember something the late Noah Gregory instilled in me. When I used to host, I would say we’re just making stuff up off the top of our heads. However, you undermine the integrity of the art and the people who do this. You need to think about how you’re framing this.
00:10:34 – B As a comedian, I think improvisation is about being in the moment and performing at the top of your intelligence in real time with others. When directing it to comedy, we frame it as something created in the moment. What you see is what we see. We don’t know what’s going to happen.
00:10:55 – B You break it down in simple ways. On the comedy side, when moving to personal professional development, we define improv in my company, Business Improv, which has been around for 25 years, based on three core competencies: reacting, adapting, and communicating.
00:11:17 – B Reacting is not a one-off; it is ongoing, focused, and present in real time. Adapting involves how, where, and when you do this, the parameters, and the goals. Reacting and adapting are both rooted in communication. We are not in a vacuum; there is always someone or something in our environment that we interact with.
00:11:43 – B This links back to performing at the top of your intelligence and defining this through the suspension of judgment and getting out of your own head. Ultimately, gut decision-making, core decision-making, intuitive decision-making, and instinctual decision-making are all part of improv.
00:12:07 – B It is based on our learned experiences, education, drive, passion, strategy, and the environment or people we engage with. It is a complex art form that reduces to reacting, adapting, and communicating.
00:12:31 – A I love that. His definition is much better than mine, and you can tell he’s a pro. I want to discuss reacting because, in my work leading below the surface and building connections across differences, I see how we react to each other all the time. I notice it when coaching teams, individuals, and during workshops and keynotes.
00:12:55 – A Can you elaborate on reacting and its importance for improv?
00:13:03 – B Reacting is part of what we do. One challenge people face is feeling like they have no control over this; they think it’s just who they are. Another key part of improvisation is slowing the brain down to be present and in the moment.
00:13:26 – B Speed and spontaneity don’t always go hand in hand. Sometimes we have to move quickly, whether on stage or reacting to an unfavorable situation. Other times, we get caught up in a riptide and start moving quickly. In conflict, this can turn into a fast exchange instead of allowing ourselves to pause. As a baseball fan, I suggest taking a pitch. Let the pitcher throw a few pitches to get a feel for how the ball is moving before swinging.
00:14:01 – B Reacting and reaction are different. It does not have to be fast to be effective. You can take many paths with that great question of yours.
00:14:27 – A It doesn’t have to be fast to be effective. Write that down. Also, observe before you react. See what’s going on with the pitcher.
00:14:38 – A For those who aren’t big baseball fans or don’t love sports analogies, it’s still relevant. Often, we don’t take time to listen. Think about times when you’re in conflict with someone, even at home. The last thing that makes conflict worse is not listening and reacting.
00:14:58 – A When I met you at ICF Midwest in Ohio, I attended your workshop about using improv to coach teams. What benefits have you seen from using these concepts with teams?
00:15:29 – B I mentioned this at the start of our conversation. The ability to create psychological safety is crucial. With psychological safety in teams, you can communicate, collaborate, and innovate. You can also have difficult conversations and explore topics with candor to ensure diverse perspectives are represented.
00:16:03 – B In a psychologically safe environment, you aim to unleash perspectives from people. Perspective differs from opinion. If you give me your opinion, we can debate it, but if you share your perspective, it’s challenging to debate because it reflects your unique lens on the world.
00:16:30 – B Perspective relates to biases and objective observations. For example, if we witness a car crash from different sides of an intersection, we all see the same event but from different angles. This perspective alters our individual realities. When you create this environment within a team, members start sharing their observations honestly and openly while respecting others’ views.
00:17:13 – A It’s interesting that you mention respecting others’ views and psychological safety. When you work with teams, do you find that you disarm them quickly with exercises, or does it take time?
00:17:31 – A I found improv classes disarming. I entered as an entrepreneur focused on my impression and what others thought. Everyone in the class likely felt the same apprehension. However, I felt disarmed by the first activity. Is that something you observe in your work as well?
00:18:06 – B There are certain things to consider as we approach the real answer to this question. We need to dispel some myths about improvisation. One common myth is that improvisation is only associated with comedy, which leads people to dismiss it as frivolous.
00:18:25 – B Another myth is that improvisation only occurs when everything goes wrong, in scramble mode. This view diminishes the intelligence required to improvise well. Once we dismiss these myths and engage people in improv games, they relax, have fun, and start laughing.
00:19:06 – B Laughing releases a chemical cocktail in our brains, including cortisol, oxytocin, endorphins, and dopamine. This release fosters trust and happiness. When people laugh together, they feel safe, enjoy themselves, and lower their inhibitions, leading to a fun experience.
00:19:38 – A It’s interesting that one of the myths is that improvisation is all about comedy. Just because you’re laughing doesn’t mean it’s comedy, which is an important point.
00:19:51 – B That’s correct. It just means you’re having fun.
00:19:53 – A Right. Some people view it as frivolous or a waste of time, but laughter can significantly impact team bonding. People often forget to laugh in the workplace.
00:20:12 – B Yes.
00:20:13 – A This is a great way to encourage laughter naturally, fostering bonding with each other rather than at each other.
00:20:19 – B It’s important to note that comedy is a style of entertainment.
00:20:28 – A Right.
00:20:30 – B When performing on stage, especially in a comedy setting, it needs to be funny because the audience expects to laugh. However, much of this work focuses on connecting with each other.
00:20:48 – B This bonding experience occurs not only from our previous discussions but also from personal struggle. Personal struggle, as I gathered from your joy conversation, doesn’t have to be a significant challenge. It can simply involve getting used to exercises alongside others who may feel anxious about participating. Eventually, you share a great experience, overcome the anxiety, and connect through laughter.
00:21:22 – B Suddenly, you create a memorable experience that relates to transferability and sustainability.
00:21:28 – A Yes. Pamela, if you’re listening, we’re talking about you. For those who missed that episode, it was one that Bob recently listened to.
00:21:41 – A It was one of the best this year. Everyone on the podcast is great, but I would say that in our last quarter, it stands out. Joy is particularly important right now, and it relates closely to this topic.
00:21:56 – A I will add that improv brings joy. It brought me a lot of joy, and I had fun. I still talk to the people from my class.
00:22:06 – A One person in my class was 19 years old, and I am old enough to be that person’s parent.
00:22:19 – B Yes, you are in your early twenties.
00:22:22 – A I know. I’m only 22. Another thing you did that I loved was provide us with some exercises. I noted several down and tried a couple. For those wanting to try this in the workplace, what are one or two accessible exercises to start with?
00:22:49 – B Let’s go classic. Yes, and is the cornerstone of improvisation and has many definitions.
00:22:57 – B For us, it’s about accepting what someone gives you, not necessarily agreeing with it. It’s about acknowledging what you receive, whether it’s good or bad. The focus is on your reaction, whether verbal or physical. Clinging to “yes and” versus “yes but” is crucial in conversations.
00:23:25 – B This approach can easily shift the direction of a conversation. Encouraging “yes and” instead of “yes but” is fundamental and represents the easiest change to implement.
00:23:37 – A I coach teams on this, and it significantly improves their interactions, especially during times of change or distress within the organization.
00:23:56 – A What else would you recommend that is easy to implement?
00:24:00 – B Since we’re discussing team coaching, have your team tell a story one word at a time.
00:24:09 – A Yes.
00:24:09 – B Alternate speaking one word at a time, going around the circle or in a Zoom meeting. Assign each person a number and focus on telling a coherent story. This addresses challenges in collaborative communication and creative idea sharing, particularly the concept of groupthink.
00:24:40 – B There is a significant difference between groupthink and group mind. Group mind is a term coined in Chicago. Groupthink involves sacrificing your thoughts to conform to the majority, which is a simplified definition but captures its essence.
00:24:58 – B Group mind involves everyone sharing their thoughts and perspectives openly and honestly, contributing to the greater good of the team, product, or process. In this exercise, when everyone focuses forward, they develop a group mind, navigating the story together. This focus shifts from individual contributions to making others look good. When everyone aims to make the story succeed, they align with each other, and diverse perspectives become valuable gifts that empower more contributions.
00:25:54 – B That’s what a group mind is all about.
00:25:57 – A Groupthink versus group mind. I love the story example of telling a story one word at a time; that could be really fun.
00:26:09 – A I enjoyed starting exercises with counting from one to ten or twenty, where no two people could talk at the same time. I still use that one; it’s fun and similar to the story exercise.
00:26:27 – A It’s part of the same origins.
00:26:28 – B Yes, the difference is, if two people say a number at the same time, you have to reset and start at zero again.
00:26:46 – A Yep, reset.
00:26:49 – B Participants must figure out when to contribute without stepping on each other’s toes, leading to a high probability of simultaneous contributions. It’s no one’s fault; you reset and start counting again until you reach twenty. You can also do this with the alphabet.
00:27:12 – A A through Z could be fun. I haven’t tried that one yet; it might be good with kids.
00:27:18 – A We’re getting towards the end of our time here, which is sad because I’m enjoying this. I want to ask you about fears because some listeners might want to use improv in the workplace.
00:27:37 – A How could people overcome their fears with using improv in the workplace?
00:27:42 – B What’s the best way to eat an elephant?
00:27:46 – A I don’t know. What if I’m a vegetarian? I don’t know if that’s a good question.
00:27:50 – B Right, I just alienated all the vegetarians.
00:27:55 – A I would be a vegetarian if someone asked me to do that.
00:27:57 – B I’ve never had elephant before either. There’s an old adage: what’s the best way to eat an elephant? The answer is one bite at a time. When you think about the enormity of this elephant, you might feel overwhelmed.
00:28:28 – B Change is hard and cumbersome. Instead of focusing on the grand picture, think about the first step in that change, or one bite of the elephant. It’s like felling a giant tree. Most people are not Paul Bunyan who can chop a tree down with one swing. You need to hit the tree multiple times to get it to fall.
00:28:43 – B If you’re afraid of using these techniques, consider what one thing you can do. You could take classes, read books, or start with simple techniques to practice with your peers. If you have a peer coaching group, you can go through challenges together and learn from each other. You could also practice with mentors, significant others at home, or your children.
00:29:20 – B As you mentioned, there are simple ways to practice before working with clients individually or in groups. I liken business improv to riding a bicycle. The first time you ride, you have training wheels. You might not understand why you’re doing it. The first time you take off the training wheels can be awkward and scary. You might fall and hurt yourself, making you hesitant to try again.
00:29:49 – B I encourage my daughter to ride her bike despite her reluctance. Eventually, she gains confidence and feels a sense of accomplishment. The joy comes when she realizes riding is fun. She enjoys the wind in her face and the freedom of transportation. There are many benefits to simply getting on the bike and riding.
00:30:26 – B It’s about tackling challenges one step at a time.
00:30:32 – A Yes, and we can all do it. We all had to learn how to ride a bike.
00:30:42 – A Collaboration is key.
00:30:44 – B If you need to coach, you can do this.
00:30:52 – A Where can people find you to learn more? I see you have a book; please share that as well.
00:31:01 – B You can find my book, “Getting to Yes, And,” at Business Improv. I’m also on LinkedIn.
00:31:08 – B We coach coaches and teach people how to use these skills. We offer an online program called Improvisational Communication for those who want to practice at home. We also provide masterclass coaching for those interested in workshops. We teach tools and techniques and would love to work with you. Find me on LinkedIn or at Business Improv.
00:31:37 – A Thank you for joining us, Bob. We will include that information in the show notes. Thank you for joining the Leading Below the Surface podcast, and we will see you next time.
00:31:46 – B Thank you. I had fun.